We’ll keep on praying, says council leader
29/7/10 CB Fareham Borough Council ceremony in the Council Chamber for the Investiture of Honorary Aldermen. Pictured is Sean Woodward speaking Picture: Paul Jacobs 102415-9
PRAYERS will still take place at the start of a council meeting next week, despite a recent High Court ruling that they could not be part of formal proceedings.
Fareham Borough Council leader, Cllr Sean Woodward, has vowed to carry on with the council’s tradition of starting meetings with prayers despite the High Court ruling.
Anyone who goes against the court could find themselves hauled before magistrates.
The council changed its standing orders in 1989 to make prayers at the start of each full council meeting an item on the agenda. They had previously been an informal part of the council meetings.
But last week, at the High Court in London, Mr Justice Ouseley ruled it was not lawful to say prayers as part of formal meetings under a clause of the Local Government Act 1972.
Although he did rule that they could be held in council chambers before the formal proceedings get under way.
Cllr Sean Woodward, the Tory leader of the council, said he had spoken to several of his colleagues who backed him. He said: ‘Prayers are very much part of our standing orders but that’s now illegal.
‘We will still have prayers next Friday. I am a Christian and many of the councillors are. The Church of England is the established church in this country and many councils start with prayers. It’s part of tradition.
‘I have taken advice from the council’s legal team and they tell me they can’t be included in the agenda, but they will be included anyway.’
Deputy leader Cllr Arthur Mandry added: ‘Councillors and everyone else should be free to enjoy their faith, whatever faith that is.’
The case had been brought by Clive Bone, an atheist and former member of Bideford Town Council in Devon, with the backing of the National Secular Society.
Cllr Woodward added: ‘If I end up in the cells before I can deliver my budget, then so be it.’
Eric Pickles, secretary of state for communities and local government called the ruling ‘surprising and disappointing.’ The Localism Act, which is due to become law soon, will give councils a general power of competence – allowing them to reinstate prayers before meetings.
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Comments
There are 51 comments to this article
Page 1 of 4
Shaun Cunningham
Tuesday, February 21, 2012 at 11:39 AMComment removed by moderator
Stella Bell
Monday, February 20, 2012 at 07:48 PM@47 Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear, Nick Gregory what a hypocrite you are, You are now campaigning with literature that is totally dishonest in which Alison Walker has hi-jacked The Residents Campaign poster created by me (Say No To Parking Charges) to make it appear that it’s the conservatives that are fighting this campaign. Alison Walker is also deceitful when she writes about Chris Brown…..”Did he represent residents on the Task and Finish Panel that oversees the New Community Centre Project? NO.”….. Of course you all know he was not on the Task and Finish Panel but the residents that you are canvassing will not know this, will they? It is all a complete character assignation of someone who has probable done more work for the Portchester people than any Conservative has done. Where is your honesty and integrity? I don’t think the Queen would be very proud of you.
Yocal
Monday, February 20, 2012 at 06:02 PMThe issue is nothing to do with faith. The vast majority of people don't get up in the morning, go to work and have group religious prayer sessions before they start work at the office. The fundamental reason why council prayer is wrong, is because councillors are doing a JOB like everyone else and the same basic principles should apply to councillors as to any other work place. Common sense (Eric Pickles has no common sense because he is an ideologist) suggests that Christians, Jews, Muslims and others can all practice their religion in their own time or in their own allocated space at work. Politicians are lying and misleading people by suggesting it is about freedom and rights, the reverse is true.
sidious
Monday, February 20, 2012 at 10:55 AM@47 "I feel that anyone willing to stand up for what they believe in , is someone who should be given support." And no doubt those who supported you when you won your seat as a LD fighting against the SDA feel that they were shafted when you suddenly changed your mind and defected. Perhaps I can refer you back to Shaun Cunningham's comments about Christian ideals, virtues, and above all, honesty, when it comes to council business.
Nick Gregory
Monday, February 20, 2012 at 10:00 AMI feel that we are all taking this to far, The Government, Armed Forces and Local Council's are all here to serve Queen and Country and the people. When I was serving in the Royal Engineers (Army) I took an Oath of Allegiance to serve our Queen and Country. This to me meant I support the ethics and Values of our Queen, and this country of our. The Queen's Government and Local Council's, and to me that also meant the Church of England for which the Queen is head of! @45 Stella Bell, Yes I was out supporting the Conservative candidate in Portchester because I feel that anyone willing to stand up for what they believe in , is someone who should be given support. I would like to see more candidates standing for this council who have something to say, it would be nice if some of the people who are writing comments on these articles would put their names forward and stand up for what they believe in and become candidates.
urbanvermin
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 06:54 PMI'm really uneasy about christians being elected as councillors. Certainly, anyone with fundamentalist religious views should be barred from office.
Stella Bell
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 04:57 PM@42 Shaun Cunningham. Thank for getting these posts back on track. Just to let you know one of those you mention that went 'walk about' is Councillor Nick Gregory. He is already out on the streets of Portchester, campaigning in the Portchester East by-election for Alison Walker, Councillor Nick Walker's daughter . They are even using the local residents campaign poster 'Say No to Parking Charges In Portchester' to make it look like it is their campaign. How can we respect the people that are supposed to represent when they stoop so low and ride on the residents back in the hope of being elected. It is a mockery to be saying prayers in the Council Chambers when they are so dishonest..
sidious
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 03:38 PM@41 Stella, please read my posts more carefully.
sidious
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 03:36 PM@42 Nicely put, Shaun. Conversation is a two way process, whoever that may be with, and if people won't listen to Him over the sound of their own voices when He talks back, then you have to wonder who they will listen to.
Shaun Cunningham
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 01:41 PMLet’s us get back to the core issue: What are Christian values in the Council chamber; Councillors enter the chamber with decisions already made. The leadership trash all sentiments other than their own, and then you have Councillors getting elected on one platform then go walk about because their fulfilment can be obtained elsewhere. Too say we have faith and ask God for guidance, guidance for what, if the heart does not vibrate with the beat of moral righteousness then what hollow actions they deem to be. The road they wish to travel is already mapped out, God plays no part in the Council Chamber for if he did one would see some humility and humbleness instead of the arrogance and self-importance which we so offered we see and read about.
Stella Bell
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 01:14 PM@40 Sidious How do you know that people who are calling out to God on their deathbed is only after years of neglect? Do you to know these people?
sidious
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 12:22 PM@39 Stella - I was of course referring to those who suddenly feel a need to reacquaint themselves with God after years of neglect when they realise they could be on their deathbeds, rather than those who I mentioned in my next sentence, who have truly known God all their lives.
Stella Bell
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 12:09 PM@36 Sidious. Your comment ….’As for people calling out for God in their hour of need, that could be classed as insurance’… . If they are calling out to God it is because they believe there is a God. Whether there is a God to pray to, we will only know for sure when we are dead and are sent to heaven or hell or get everlasting life. But if there isn’t a God we will NOT know because we are dead. If there was more respect and caring about other people’s point of view especially from the those who are public servants, perhaps the world would be a better place.
sidious
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 10:30 AM@36 If prayers form part of a meeting agenda, those who enter late would be classed as not present at the start of the meeting. Why should they be stigmatised in that way? That doesn't sound very Christian, does it? As for people calling out for God in their hour of need, that could be classed as insurance. If you have faith to begin with, you don't fear death, as you're happy to meet your maker. Myself, even as a person without faith, I don't fear death either, as I recognise it as a natural part of life and having led as good a life as I can regardless of believing in God, I still fancy my chances even if I've got it wrong.
sidious
Sunday, February 19, 2012 at 10:19 AM@32 My parents didn't brainwash me. My parents went to mass regularly and played a very active part within the church. I found I did not share their faith or indeed any faith when I was aged around 8 and still living at home. I nevertheless attended mass with them, although I felt very uncomfortable doing so, until I was an adult, because it was part of family living. It also gave me a good insight into faith and theology and how they affect society today. I have a very close and personal relationship with my own conscience, with which I am able to look upon the world without dogma or lack of self responsibility, which has made my life amazing. I don't feel that my life has suffered as a result. As I've said previously, I respect the right of those with faith to exercise it; I just don't think it should impinge on others. Prayers should not form part of a council meeting agenda.
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