Read every word of Mark Catlin's verbal joust with former Crystal Palace owner Simon Jordan - who reveals he tried to buy Portsmouth

Catlin was a guest on the White & Sawyer Show on TalkSPORT on Tuesday, where he was involved in a lively discussion with former Crystal Palace owner Simon Jordan.

Their debate centred on the subject of Premier League clubs supporting EFL outfits amid the coronavirus, with a focus on the way football clubs are running their businesses.

Catlin stood his ground as the intensity of the conversation rose, with Jordan explaining he made an attempt to buy Pompey in 2012.

Below is exactly how that discussion unfolded…

JW: For those who didn't hear last week tell us what you're pushing in terms of the EFL, the impact the virus is having on the game the EFL in your view needs to find it’s own solutions. Am I right?MC: We’re not that far apart on what we’re saying, but the thought of the Premier League bailing us out and demands of that nature I personally think are off the mark.It would be great if they could, the government have stepped in and the EFL have advanced payments. These are all great to get us over the short-term cash-flow issues every club is going to be facing, not just in the EFL, but also potentially the Premier League as well.

But the thought this is going to solve the ills of football moving forward, there shouldn’t be that reliance because we should have our own houses in order.

If you look at the figures in the Championship, obviously a key part of the EFL, they are frightening.

If you look at the notion of profit and sustainability. Profit and sustainability? £39m of losses allowed over three years? And even that’s being flouted by clubs.

We need to use this period, yes go to the Premier League and see if there’s anything they can do and the government are trying to with business generally, but for the longer term this has to be the time we look at ourselves for the greater good for football moving forward so we don’t end up in a situation where a load of clubs go bust.JW: Now Mark,I can tell you Simon has been nodding to everything you’ve been saying.SJ: He’s absolutely right, but the problem is these guys are the ones who enforced this legislation and voted for these regulations.

The football club owners and chief executives are the ones who sit in meetings with the Football League board accepting recommendations for financial fair play and governance inside an industry that regulates on how much you lose.

The idea, as Mark will well know, the Premier League have no responsibility - the reason you guys get paid solidarity payments of whatever it is in League One - half a million quid – is because you all gave up your compensation rights under the EPPP (Elite Player Performance Plan) programme for academies.MC: Sorry there’s two different aspects. You get a solidarity payment of I think £750,000 in League One that is a separate entity for the money we get as part of the funding of the EPPP. However...SJ: It’s a trade-off Mark. It’s a trade-off that Brian Mawhinney did as Football League chairman because I was there.MC: So what happened there was clubs at that time…SJ: Because the League One and League Two clubs wanted to vote down the Championship clubs because they needed the solidarity payments of £200,00 and £300,000 at that time.MC: That’s what I’m saying. I’m not disagreeing with that. The Premier League had the EFL up against a wall with a gun at their head because they were so reliant on the solidarity paymentsSJ: No, no what they did was baited a hook Mark and they gave it as a solidarity payment as a gimme and then three years down the lime they said, “oh by the way that gimme you’ve all got in your cash flow we’re going to put a hook on it and pull it back and not give to you anymore”.The League One and League Two clubs said “we can’t afford that” and the Championship clubs said “hold on we’re the revenue driver. We’re the ones who drive the commercial deals which give everyone the revenue which is being fed”.Whether that’s the 80 per cent of TV money in the Championship and 12 per cent to you in League One and eight to League Two is right or wrong, the Championship is the revenue driver.If the Premier League was actually looking after the pyramid in football which helps make it, they’d be negotiating deals at the same as they negotiate their own deals, so at the time the Premier League negotiated its deal they cut you guys asunder so you negotiate your deal and get the crumbs left on the table.So when I talk about the Premier League having an obligation, if this season wasn’t finished and I hope that not the case, there will be £195m of parachute payments that are not going to be paid. Why can’t the Football League have that money to help itself though a shot-term problem?JW: Mark, what do you want to say to that?MC: There’s a number of issues there - one, clubs were forced to accept that because they were in such a poor positions themselves anyway. We do do our own deal with Sky and it’s a supply and demand Simon as you know. We go out there for tenders and get the best deal we can in the EFL. That’s separate to the Premier League.Now the Premier League do pass down £150m over and above parachute payments to clubs in the EFLSJ: £138m, yeah I know.MC: That’s without parachute apartments, How clubs in the Championship, League One and League Two choose to spend that money is down to them. So I’m not disagreeing with you that they need help they can give at this moment.SJ: It’s about governance Mark isn’t it.MC: Just one second. The feedback we’re getting at the moment is they are in as much trouble as the EFL.How do you expect the Premier League which is a separate organisation and all clubs are independent to be passing down money at this money to, say, Championship clubs many of whom have wage bill bigger than the clubs in the Premier League!JW: It’s pretty decent of Mark thake their view saying...

SJ: Absolutely

JW: They have their problems and so do we.SJ: A lot of clubs will be looking at Portsmouth’s ownership structure, and I know Paul Scally at Gillingham will have a different view. saying it’s very nice to have Michael Eisner behind you.MC:No, no.SJ: You’d all say hold on Jordan we need to run our businesses properly. I know you’d say that, too.MC:Simon, that’s what wound me up last week (on a previous show). Look at the history of Portsmouth.SJ: I know, I tried to buy them in 2012. I know what Balram Chainrai did and so on and so forth.MC: If you could listen to me for one second. The club came out of admin and was £8m in debt and losing £1m a year. We learnt our lesson.Under fan ownership we cleared the debt and turned the club into a profit and became what we hope will be a model for other clubs.We’ve been advocating clubs adopt our model of true sustainability for years and years and years. It’s been falling on deaf ears.JW: You can’t disagree with that, Simon.SJ: It’s honourable and I’m in the same camp as Mark. It’s a nice position to be in when you’re sitting in League Two and League One.MC: Can I, you’re not letting me finish. You’re getting on now to the billionaire owner. He only got voted into the club on the promise he wouldn’t move from that stance.SJ: I think that’s fantastic Mark and I think it’s a great position to take - and it’s the same position I would take.JW: So what’s your beef with what Mark’s saying?SJ: I don’t have a beef with it. What I’m saying is Mark’s position is based on a League One or League Two position.We’ll see how he lands in the Championship when the ambition become very different because you’ve got a whiff of Utopia.MC: That’s where you have to be strong, Simon. If we all stick together as a group.

SJ: But you don’t Mark! I’ve sat in Football League meetings with the most ridiculous scenario of 72 people arguing about puerile rules when the one problem you’ve got is finances outside the Premier League.And the one thing the Football League has never done is manage its finances properly, while the Premier League has disappeared further and further into the ether.I agree with you. It should not be the responsibility of the Premier League to fund the Football League.But you are in the eye of a storm right now and the short-term opportunities whether the Premier League had to hand back £750m to broadcasters is down to their negotiation.Sky’s had years and years and yeast and years of enormous opportunity and if they can’t kill the golden goose for one years there’s a major problem with the broadcasting relationship.But if you’re sitting there and suggesting that there is a shot-term problem that the Premier League, if it cane, whether it’s players taking a 25 per cent pay cut or whether it’s parachute payments being dropped into the Football League in the short term while football says we can’t lost these businesses, we can’t lose these institutions. We have to govern ourselves properly then I don’t know what we’re talking about Mark. I don’t know what we’re talking about.MC:We’re agreeingJW: I understand what Mark is saying.

MC:If they are in as great a financial position as you say they are Simon they should be helping us - but they're as worried about the future as the EFL at the moment.

JW: Yeah. He’s not wrong to say that.

SJ: No.

JW: There’s concern right across the board Simon.

SJ: The biggest problem for the Premier League at this time is there is a mooting of the fact the broadcasters are going to have the audacity to ask for £750m back.

That will then take £37m out of the cash glow of every single Premier League club which will put a lot of them…don’t forget Mark the average Premier League club is making about 30m profit I know you can say that’s inflated by Liverpool’s 110m, Spurs £107m and so on and so forth.

But an average is an average and if you look across the Premier League it’s a £500m a year profitable league. Those are facts. You know they are.

MC: Yeah, but the Premier League has an obligation to pass that down to their members clubs and each of those clubs has to function as a business as do Championship clubs, League One and League Two.

I’m not disagreeing with you. If the money’s there and they can help - Great. But all I’m saying is the EFL generally and the clubs within it shouldn’t be relying on that.

SJ:I agree with you Mark. I agree with you. The only thing I would contradict you on, and I absolutely agree with you, because businesses should run their own businesses. They should be responsible for their own decision-making process.

But you know it Mark, how difficult is it when you’ve got a drip-down effect from the Premier League which is the salaries which you cannot manage your businesses

If Portsmouth get into the Championship the last thing you’re going to want to do is get relegated. You’re going to try to find a way to have a go.

You’re getting an extra three, four or five million a year from the TV money and your salaries are going to go up accordingly. It’s going to become more difficult to manage.

The Premier League can’t just cut you adrift.

MC:I totally disagree with you. I disagree with you. That’s if you let it. You have to be strong and disciplined.

SJ:Okay.

MC:You can’t rely on the owners putting the money in.

SJ: Great.

JW: Mark is coming away with the exact same business you’ve been telling me about.

SJ: Absolutely. I’m a person who lost £50m in a football club, so I understand exactly what I’m talking about.

If financial fair play was around at the time I was at Palace I would have bitten you arm off at the wrist.

But these are the guys who sit there and say we’re going to allow you to lose money. You're the guys who voted in the regulation that says governance...

MC: We don’t. We vote against it.

SJ:Well the other 71 chairman don’t do they, because it’s enforced. If you turn around and say you can’t lose money and governance in the Premier League and EFL is about not losing money then with players there will be a downward pressure on the one thing you need to create downward pressure on: salaries.

JW: Mark, I don’t want you today to leave feeling like Billy-Joe Saunders’ punch bag.

SJ:Mark’s done very well - he’s beaten me up actually.

JW: Mark you put your points well and Simon in his own inimitable way is agreeing with much of what you’re saying.

MC: The final point I totally agree with. If we can get to a point of true sustainability the business of football actually becomes profit making and not loss making.

SJ:That’s right Mark.

MC:We have to change that culture. We all agree on that.

SJ: You’ve got an opportunity now in the eye of the storm to grab it.

MC: I agree with that.

SJ:I hope people like you are at the front of the queue when their voices need to be heard.